We had a long interview with Professor Michael Braungart yesterday (Oct.25) in Deutsches Kulturzentrum Taipei. It was a great opportunity to talk with Prof. Braungart. Our interview abstracts is pasted here:

Liang chung wei: You founded EPEA in 1987, after several yeas in 1995 you founded MBDC with Williams McDonough in States. What made you to have the chance to work with Mr. McDonough? What was the purpose of the new company?

Michael Brungart: Firstly, I had to go to United States because my wife became a minister for environment in government of Germany. She was prohibited from doing things with her husband. She even can’t do the same business with her husband. I left my country to US in 1990. I opened offices one in Sao Paulo, Brazil and the other one in NY in 1991. US and Germany have different ways in paying people. In Europe, people get pay by raise the problems, in US, they get pay by solution. That makes people can’t get funding for studing complicated problems. Only military will fund the complex problems research. And that’s why scientist over there couldn’t help people in New Orleans. Becasue environment problems happen to be the very complicated problem. they are not only the technical problem, also social problem, cultural problem. In US I got funding by Teresa Heinz, she finance my research in different universities when I was teaching in Harvard & MIT.

I opened an office in NY in 1991 with McDonough to support architecture design. In US, things always designed for marketing. Always the marketing tells designers what to do, but they are not doing for the society.McDonough is different with other designers. McDonough was born in Tokyo, brought in HK, so he has no difficult to know more about these. He really like to collaborate. I made conceptual thinking and his profession is in architecture. Buildings are key for materials. We can choose materials which are good instead of bad.

Three years ago my wife did something differently so I can do more work back in Europe and gaves us space to do things we want. I’m now working more in the United German government in a committee of 20 experts for environment innovation. On the other side, I’m doing another works in Netherland. Netherland is much easier to work because in Germany people have been cutting trees since 18th century. They feel guilty for having done this. In Gernany people always feel the natrue is good and human is bad. In Netherland people respect nature but more in a balence way. That is the same spirit as in Cradle to Cradle. We celebrate nature.

Four weeks ago, Dutch Environment Minister Jacqueline Cramer said they will become the first “cradle to cradle country” in history. They teach cradle to cradle in the universities all over the country, they make workshops. Next week there is a workshop which will talk and learn about design, architecture, product design, transportation, urban planning…etc. In a country with population density similar to China, people in Netherlands support each other instead of control each other. It’s nice because it’s the same culture of cradle to cradle. All the program not only are sponsored by Dutch government but big companies such as Phillips. People come to discuss and think about how to do it.They are really open to change and they don’t see change as a threat but as opportunities. It has to be an open society to have cradle to cradle cultures.

Liang : How they promote the ideas?

Michael: They put information in TV, and they do the whole tour for all 20 cities to show how to change the industries. Foundations are involving in doing cradle to cradle. All university are doing education about it. It’s a peaceful revolution.

Liang: How about China? you already have different program in serveral cities there.

Michael: We have different approaches. Central China has 400M people. To build the house we found that we could use local materials which is as stable as concrete but without any energy consumption. We have to protect raised flora because that’s about agriculture land. India has 3 times more agriculture land than China does. It’s necessary to use land for feeding people.

Liang: Now China is like the world factory, most of the toys, PC, comsumer electronics are made there. How to apply new things to the factories in China?

Michael: It’s similar with the combination between Germany and US. Many innovation comes from Europe, but making money in US. Just like a lots innovations comes from Taiwan, but industries come from Mainland. MP3 players came from Germany, but produced and marketed in US. Taiwan, like Europe, has many arguments in society, but have not much interests in solve problems. China just solves problem, just do it. It has being one of Chinese government advance. It’s nice to generate connection in peaceful way between Mainland and Taiwan.

Liang: You have to deal with big companies, how to work with or even educate them?

Michael: Two things will be beneficial here. One is Chinese culture is always think “long term”. Companies in United States always think about efficiency and strategical. Secondly, you have to learn from industrial leader. It should be more conn ected to political. Government need to support industry and put best people to the politics. Governments sometimes try to take over the role in part of industry which doesn’t make sense. They have responsibility to the dindustry and should solve problems for them.

Liang: So the common plaftorm could also support industry to use the materials, that’s why you started partnership with Material ConneXion this year?

Michael: Innovation is key to company. But companies need to earn money even with materials which is not good. We need a platform for communication and to help them. Change environment for innovation which is key of Material ConneXion platform. Now there are 2000-5000 materials which are cradle to cradle materials in Innovation platform. Leading companies need the platform because company, take Coca-Cola as example, need to sell coca-cola and other product lines. So they need to get new product to the market and they need to continue to reinvent the product.

Many company just makes money by destroying people’s health. It’s not just make mistakes. Innocent children want to play toys but toys destroy children’s immune system. 95% of companies want to be responsibility and to be good. They want to be proud of what they do. 95% of people want to be good. We should support 95% people then celebrating. Instead of just feel sorry for 5% people, we should help 95% people to be good.

There are materials library or collection in Bangkok and will be in HK. People can go to library and get information and order from internet more. They also can know about how to use materials, how to do research for those materials. I would love to see industries in Taiwan to come and show cradle to cradle to them. To support each other or put cultural supportinga through the library in which there are leading companies provide materials, like Mitsubishi, DSN….You can put cradle to cradle concept into your product to make it beneficial and even competitive.

Liang: You started a career of chemist but now you are far beyond being only a chemist….

Michael: I would like to be a Chemistry teacher. I love systematic of chemistry. I am happy to do things about environment and chemistry and it makes sense to tell your family how to do it. Today it is more than technology. It’s just stupid not to do cradle to cradle. However, we don’t need to put anybody down. We don’t need to say “I’m good one and you are bad one”. We respect different opinions. We need to reinvent our relationship with customers. For example in 1994, Nike pollute people in Vietnam and Taiwan. They got use cheapest things to do their products and caused huge problems. They should be careful in choosing chemical. And their image became ugly for 18 months. They reinvented marketing but the pollution they caused got bad reputation. They spend huge money in marketing to let people ware their shoes. They even paid 600M to one not so good German football player to ware their shoes to do the marketing.

That’s why you can’t recycle everything, for example you can’t recycle the relationship with your boyfriend. Why don’t sell the shoes only for two years? people pay for usage of the shoes or pay the insurance for the transportation safety for 2 years? After 2 years, people return the shoes back. You don’t have to push customer anymore and you can produce better shoes. For newspaper, you can sell for reading but not asking people to own the paper. Customer will no longer buying newspapers. If they don’t read the same news anymore, they can just wash it and reprint again. It can be reused for at least 60 times.

Liang: Would you talk more about the Nutec Exhibition of cradle to cradle in Frankfurt next year?

Michael: Nutec is making things nutrient and encouragement instead of controlling. We’d like invite all companies to come and to present their innovations, and come to the conference to share information. The conference will be in Frankfort next year. Sturtgart want to do the exhibition becasue they have strong industry but we need a place with direct flight to access.

Liang: You and Mr. McDonough proposed Hanover principles in 2000. What you will say this time for the next year exhibition?

Michael: The Principles we posted are the basis of doing architecture, product design, celebrating life…just the guidelines for architecture designers to make difference. For near future we just celebrate life. If people feel they must do it, just like government says: “you must have fun!” people won’t have fun nor enjoy it. Why don’t celebrate for those who wants to be good? We can celebrate 95% people who want to be good but not to destroy the rest 5%. We need to make positive things.

Liang: China has huge market potential for the environmental economy, do you have plan to set up a office in China to promote your idea?

Michael: Yes, we are considering of that possibility. But maybe I will open office here in Taipei. As I said only a open society could fully compatible with the cradle to cradle idea. You have free press, you critic of politicians and argue about politics just as in Germany, without any fear. Here veryone knows everyone. You have very good connection. Just like in Netherlands. And you are innovative.

Liang: That will be our honor to see this come true.

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